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Build talk:Mo/W RA WoH
A very simple RA WoH Monk. Includes all viable variants (that I could think of). Any necessary changes can and should be freely made. Suggestions welcome. --[[User:Readem|'Readem']] 20:58, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :Thanks, hopefully this will shut everyone up. Nice write up. --Frosty 21:52, May 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, despite that usually imo pure redbar is better, alot of it is personal preferance and we defo need a hybrid on site.. --Steamy..x 21:54, May 12010 (UTC) Uh...shouldn't it be 7+1 prot and 8+1 divine for 5 secs guardian?--''Kazurin'' 22:41, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :Weakness. [[User:Novii|'«No']][[User_talk:Novii|'Ѵit..«']] 22:43, May 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Hm..yea, but that would also knock off your q8 shield :S--''Kazurin'' 22:46, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :::That is why you use q7 shields. [[User:Novii|'«No']][[User_talk:Novii|'Ѵit..«']] 22:48, May 16, 2010 (UTC) ::::Loosing 1 divine favor is worth it. You can't really get 9 tactics without saccing too many atts. --Frosty 22:49, May 16, 2010 (UTC) needs an ab variant [[User:Novii|'«No']][[User_talk:Novii|'Ѵit..«']] 23:06, May 16, 2010 (UTC) :Maybe just make an AB WoH bar. --Frosty 23:15, May 16, 2010 (UTC) Now I think it is fine now. No complaints. Still a kind of hybrid though a bit different. I still won't use dolyak, but use balanced stance, since I prefer it. A well, good job now. Shadow Form Slayer 13:40, May 17, 2010 (UTC) Wait, what Why was the other page deleted? And why do we have some have-assed build here now? The entire point of giving the RA Pure Heal its own page was so that there was a complete build all set up for people who come to this site specifically looking for an RA Monk bar. Who messed this all up? God damn, this site totally fails. WTF. Zuranthium 00:24, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Nice to see it took you this long to realise Zurrie. --Frosty 00:31, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Sorry I don't come here every single day. I like to actually play the game and beat top 20 guilds (notice me destroying pleb and [||||], currently on obs mode) rather than come here and try to talk sense into idiots. Ya'll totally screwed this up, though. Stop ruining my build pages. My AIM contact info is listed. Once again, the entire point of the page I created was so that we could have a complete, superior RA Monk bar. What's the point in even having PvX if we aren't providing builds for the community to be able to look up and quickly load? You should have kept the WoH Arena Monk page to have a general overview page and left my Mo/W Pure Heal page alone. Now I have to re-write it all. Zuranthium 00:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::how does winning with quad ele split make you viable to have whatever builds you want vetted...? and youre acting like none of us have ever beat top 20 guilds before. Gringo 01:01, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Few and far in-between, no doubt. Don't knock the build either, it's hardly an auto-win...notice LaG losing with it (plus we only even played that for 1 round? LOL?). Also, I'm pretty sure I have more glad/champ points than all of you (100% legit too, none of that retarded syncing/farming crap that is commonplace now). Regardless, these things aside, when a build has been vetted into the GREAT section within 1 day of being created, and any knowledgeable player of the format agrees it is one of the best builds available, why on earth would the page be DELETED before even reaching a consensus? Now we have this shit page. Zuranthium 01:23, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::i like how you take any chance to reference a good guild or how you just played a match in obs. go stroke your ego somewhere else. --[[User:Angelus...|'Ang']][[User talk:Angelus...|'el']] 01:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I'm not stroking my ego, it's called credentials. I know what I'm talking about and fools undermining my attempts to improve this website really piss me off. I don't even care if you use MY exact RA Monk bar - just get a freaking complete bar on the main page! I'm editing right now, with a list of variants that should be suitable. Zuranthium 01:47, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::i could really give a shit less about the build on the main page. i could really give a shit less about RA in general. i just find it funny that you take every chance you can to tell everyone how high ranked gvg you play. --[[User:Angelus...|'Ang']][[User talk:Angelus...|'el']] 02:49, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::That's hardly what I do. I was simply responding to the person who said "took you long enough to see we made a new page", as if it's some kind of knock against me or my GW ability/knowledge that I don't come to this site every day. Trolling around PvX all day long doesn't make you a better player. It might actually make you a worse player. Zuranthium 03:26, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Massive epic failure. Frosty was amazed that it took you this long to realize that pvx totally fails, not whatever bullshit went through your head when you read it. Life Guardian 03:30, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Massive epic fail on his part if he thought I didn't already know that. Zuranthium 03:37, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::So then you QQ all over the place and change the build? It was FINE before, the open ended build was put up here for a reason 05:04, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::The open ended build was put here for a BAD reason. Most people agree that a pure healing WoH bar is the most effective Monk for RA. A complete bar should be listed to reflect that; this is the reason people come to the site after all. There is a variant section to take care of different skill selections for the bar that are viable. Zuranthium 05:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :He has a point though, perhaps listing as mini bars a version with guardian, and the pure heal build, to aid in the cookie cutting. With a bunch of blanks, it COULD be argued, that it is hard to see how to fully set up a successful build, by putting 2-3 sample minibars, that problem could be avoided. Kind of like the Dual Monk Backline team builds for HA/GvG. 01:36, May 18, 2010 (UTC) i beat IWAY once with a straight up byob with pets.....just saying --[[User:Angelus...|'Ang']][[User talk:Angelus...|'el']] 01:09, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :and when i was r0 g0 i beat amazing strength at vod, when they were r19. so s vett my build because of that!! Gringo 01:12, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Fail discussion moved to separate section of page. Zuranthium 01:23, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::You've been off wiki far too long Zur--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 01:24, May 18, 2010 (UTC) O, I guess we're not done with the drama?--TahiriVeila 05:16, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :I wouldn't call it drama, just ineptitude really. Zuranthium 05:42, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Those two words are synonymous on pvx--TahiriVeila 06:12, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Zuranthium + RA builds is always hilarious. Tell us how bad we all are Zuranthium! MiseryUser talk:Misery 06:15, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Well here's the first hint to being less terrible - having 8 skills on your bar usually works a lot better than only having 5. :D Zuranthium 07:43, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Yay build is medioce again... changing vote... Ocirne23 08:19, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::"Just redbarring does not cut it in RA. When that SW sin is chasing your 480 hp ele on your team, it is more efficient and safer to prot then to try and heal the thousands of points of damage." - Wrong. A properly timed WoH will heal for 250. Guardian will not prevent that much damage if the Sin has a brain and if you spec Guardian you're going to lose against pressure builds. Also, using absolutely terrible teammates as an argument is a logical fallacy. If the Ele on your team is THAT bad, you won't be getting 25 wins anyway. All of this was covered on the old "Mo/any Arena Monk" page, but apparently I'm going to have to explain it to everyone yet AGAIN. Zuranthium 08:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Can somebody remove ikomono's vote, his reasoning doesnt really qualify it for 1-1.. 3-3 at the least. --Steamy..x 08:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Prots win games against damage packets, This build is easier to take down than the MR build. which is quite a stupid feat. The current all heal build is incredibly stupid; even more so with 8 points pumped into tactics to increase a stance that isn't going to be useful past 2-4 seconds.--Ikimono...And my Axe! 10:52, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::If you think it's easier to take down than an MR Monk, you have absolutely no idea how to play and should not be posting about this build. Zuranthium 18:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Insults make you look smart HURR HURR--Ikimono...And my Axe! 10:30, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ya'll niggas postin in a troll thread. -Auron 11:01, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Umm, I dont know if you know but blocking an(average) assasins lead attack can easily prevent more then 250 damage. And there are usually more then 1 physical on the same target so you sortof have a double win. A non elite 250+ "heal" for 5 energy is good enough for me. Not to mention it avoids interrupts on WoH. I would rather have it over virgorous spirit. But I guess thats just one part of the crowds opinions. Some monks are good at using guardian and like using it and some don't. And you can't possibly argue with opinions. Ocirne23 11:03, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Have fun losing against a good pressure team. Zuranthium 18:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Steamy, your vote needs to be changed as well I think. This guy removed guardian from the main bar. Ocirne23 11:06, May 18, 2010 (UTC) I called this shit I totally did. Right before you get too butthurt by a wiki Zurrie, I'm gonna explain how things work around here. PvX is not here to document what YOU run, PvX is here to document what the majority of people run, what is meta. You could be the only person who runs CoP/Spotless, so how does that document what is being run as a majority? The current build notes the 5 skills that are always run, that is a majority of the bar and is in general what everyone runs when playing WoH in RA. There are 3 bloody optional slots that you can fill with YOUR variation, Readem's variation, Jake's variation, fucking Jesus' variation for all I care (not KJ the real deal), in general it is down to the player to decide what they prefer, some people prefer other things and play with them well. Remember, PvX isn't here to document what you run, but what is meta and good, and the build page with 3 optional slots represents that at it's best. --Frosty 11:35, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Some people don't run Draw. Some people run Balanced Stance over Dolyak Signet. Ultimately, it's a build TEMPLATE. If an individual runs something different, and it's effective, and it's in the variants somewhere, then everyone needs to stop complaining. Only thing I disagree with you about, Frosty, is that meta != good, very occasionally. Just because everyone runs a particular build, doesn't mean it's good...and PvX is here to document effective builds. But I know what you mean. PVX-RustyTheMesmer 11:49, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Thank you, Justice finally! Ocirne23 12:08, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::"You could be the only person who runs CoP/Spotless, so how does that document what is being run as a majority". I'm hardly the only person running that. It's pretty common. Zuranthium 18:31, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Also - "Remember, PvX is here to document what is meta and good, and the build page with 3 optional slots represents that at it's best." A build with 3 optional slots HARDLY represents that. It represents nothing at all. If you want to be specific, there are ONLY 3 skills you can be sure any RA monk will have. They are WoH, Patient Spirit, and Bonetti's. So unless you want to strip the build down to those 3 skills, and then provide 5 optional slots, your argument completely fails. Zuranthium 18:38, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::And yet another thing - the build I posted up several days ago was vetted into the "Great" section with a dozen votes less than a day after it was created. Clearly THAT SPECIFIC BUILD was deemed to be excellent by the community. Keep a general WoH page if you don't want to have a specific bar that people can come to this site to load and play with. Zuranthium 18:53, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::"I'm hardly the only person running that. It's pretty common." Umm, hell no its not. And don't try to prove me wrong coz im sortof in ra 8hours a day..... (yes I still have a life, sortof). I do agree that those 3 skills are the ones that everyone has, but there still has to be a build. When opinions are closed out, this current set does the best job. ::::::Umm, yes it is. At least in terms of several non-bad Monks using it. The one good thing you've said - "there still has to be a build". Indeed, there does. And this main page is NOT a build. Zuranthium 19:21, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Policy > opinion PVX-RustyTheMesmer 05:35, May 19, 2010 (UTC) Diciplined stance optional? I personally like to use it over Dolyak Signet since it sortof already prevents KD and it blocks, its good to prevent interrupts on your skills, I think it is worthy of a spot, but I may be wrong. Ocirne23 12:13, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :^ variant I mean. and... "~Protectors Defense over Dolyak Signet, if you think the movement reduction hurts" ghehe funny. Ocirne23 17:44, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Figure out a complete mainbar. Because this is really dumb. You can have a full set bar on the mainpage and vote with the variants section in mind too. That is in fact what you're doing by having 3 optional slots. And, of the 5 skills listed here, some people don't even bring 2 of them. Really pointless as it stands. Zuranthium 19:03, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Will you please stop it. Your opinion does not matter, this bar suits every players wishes. Excluding you, stop being ungrateful, its very rude.Ocirne23 19:09, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :You could put example mini skill bars to reflect the full bars that people run? Hareemuhhh.talk? 19:11, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :On the other hand, I think you are right, as most people don't use Dolyak or Draw Conditions. I think there should be "slot-specific" optionals, "Slot 3 must eighter be Draw, Dismiss (Mending Touch)" But again, just an opinion and not "zomg I HAs hax0r skilLz so sTFU and be like me" Ocirne23 19:14, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::"this bar suits every players wishes". No it doesn't. "Your opinion does not matter". Yes it does. Zuranthium 19:22, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::That is what you think. Ocirne23 19:28, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::The only reason we are having this discussion is because over a month ago I posted on the old "Mo/any Arena WoH" page that a pure healing bar was best. Idiots disagreed and there was a debate and then I posted a link to the Guru forums wherein EVERY good Monk agreed with me (along with multiple screenshots of me getting 25 wins with a pure heal bar). Flash forward to several days ago, I decided to create a Pure Healing RA Monk page simply to be nice and provide the community with a build since I often get PMs from people in RA saying "what should I run/what is your build?". The build was immediately vetted into "Great" and then the page was destroyed for no reason. And now we are again back to not having a build for people to come to the site and load up and be able to play with. Zuranthium 19:42, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Okay we all know zurie is being a bitch about this, but can we agree Ocirne is a completely terrible player for suggesting we take draw and dolyak off the mainbar? Like that's just retarded pal--TahiriVeila 20:01, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::I don't agree to you and Im a good monk, altough I could never surpass your ego, I still have the courage to call myself a "good" monk Ocirne23 20:02, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Well They are the best in my opinion and they should be on the bar. And it is fine as it is, I just find it hard to switch to draw after using dismiss for like... eternity. not that comfortable at maintaining DW on myself >.> Ocirne23 20:04, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Stfu and deal with it. You should have so much armor stacked on you (disciples, AL+& spear, q7 AL 15 shield, AL +10 vs damage type, dolyak) that nothing can DPS you out. You should ALWAYS be the last one alive on your team, keeping yourself up is never a problem it's keeping your team up. With proper equip rodgorts should hit in the ~50s and axe wars running superiors his for ~5. Stop being bad, I know zurie's being a whiney bitch on this page but he's actually right. With the exception of Contemplation (I prefer cure) the woh page he put up is the best arena bar out there. It's not a matter of opinion. Unfortunately we had tons of shitters like you who don't know how to play bitch and we had to compromise with this half-assed page. Gratz, can you sod off now? Cheers--TahiriVeila 20:11, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::so...much...irony...can't...compute... Gringo 20:16, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::Your wit never ceases to amuse me :< --TahiriVeila 20:19, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Alrightythen, Im not that bad of a guy actually, I just like this kind of debates :P Ocirne23 20:20, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Mass debates. --Frosty 20:43, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :(On Topic) If you Want a full bar set, leave the main bar the way it is, and put in 2 minibars, one with guardian, and one that is the mirror of the pure heal build. Would that make you happy? we get the universal main bar, and we can put in "sample" minibars to show the 2 most commonly run variants. eh? eh? 20:48, May 18, 2010 (UTC) ::The "universal" main bar is not universal. It's just useless. Minibars don't let people come to the site and quickly copy+paste either. Everyone needs to just buckle down and let one single bar be on the mainbar as a representative "RA Monk" bar and then let the variants section take care of the rest. Zuranthium 00:12, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::The current mainbar is terrible. Not having prots in RA is a complete joke.-- 00:53, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::Tons of people getting 25 wins with pure healing says otherwise. Learn to play the bar properly. It's always a bit of a toss up, Guardian is better against a team without disruption and lots of physicals, but that chance of facing that is far less likely than facing than teams with heavy condi/hex pressure and caster damage. Zuranthium 01:37, May 19, 2010 (UTC) to show all optionals... 1: :* :* :* 2: :* :* :* 3: :* :* :* :* 4: :* :* 5: :* :* but a bar with just 3 skills sucks.Illoyon 21:18, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, doing all that doesn't help anyone. All those optional will just confuse people and likely cause them to mix skills in unfavorable ways. Zuranthium 00:12, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::yeah it would definitely confuse a 2 year old--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 00:17, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::^ +1 The fact that there IS this much discussion about the bar should make it pretty obvious that there ARE OTHER POSSIBLE VARIANTS!!!! OMG! calling people bad doesn't change that other things also work. 00:19, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::And that's why there is a variants section. For variants. Someone saying that a Melandru's Resilience monk is better than a pure heal Mo/W is simply bad, though. No two ways about it. I see that the main bar here has been fixed now. I will fix the variants section and the "Usage" section so that it is sufficiently detailed. Zuranthium 00:28, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Ok so I desided to try this build and..... it owns! really, 105 armour lols at damage. only cracked armour makes me a little sad. but thats all Ocirne23 11:16, May 19, 2010 (UTC) A 40/20% staff for virgorous? Its both dangerous and overkill to your energy, making your already-somewhat low health drop by 60 points is just too risky considering that a shield + 20% ench spear work just as well. So I suggest * A Furious Spear of Enchanting (+5e) and a req7 vs x damage shield Ocirne23 13:14, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :Do you know how to weapon swap? Fuck man you keep revealing how bad you are with every post.--TahiriVeila 16:24, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::He is saying that the health drop might kill you in certain situations (it happens); not that he can't swap. I have never really found it to be a huge issue however. --[[User:Readem|'Readem']] 16:27, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::I can't see how that'd ever bee a problem since you're gonna have at most a 60 health difference (30 if you have the right equip) between your shield set and your staffset? If you're that low on health i don't think you should be casting vig anyway =\ --TahiriVeila 16:39, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::So I'm bad thx, but why the fk would you use a staff when a 20%spear works just as well. Stuff happens and you might be quarterknocked while you were just casting virgorous at full health making you unable to change to your shield set. And stop trolling ffs im just having a serious conversation. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Ocirne23 16:48, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::+5 armor [[User:Novii|'«No']][[User_talk:Novii|'Ѵit..«']] 16:51, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Make that +25 if you got the right shield equiped. Ocirne23 16:54, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Anyone gona change it? I'm terrible at english Ocirne23 17:03, May 19, 2010 (UTC) The Healing staff is so you still get the 20% fast recharge chance. You sometimes might want to use the enchant mod to give Patient Spirit a longer delay (to act as a cover hex) or to cast Spotless Mind when you have weakness on you. It can possibly help with Vig too, just in case it gets stripped right away and you'd want to put to up again immediately. The fast cast chance from the staff can be beneficial too, even if they are only 1/4 second casts. These are fairly minor details, though. An enchanting spear + shield set is probably equally useful, to prevent damage while getting the enchant mod, I'm just used to having a staff as my first weapon set. Zuranthium 19:18, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :Alright, I can't argue with that. I have the bad habit of always using a different set for every spell (muscle memory -.-") so I prefer to use a shield. Both have their advantages. Ocirne23 20:11, May 19, 2010 (UTC) Shields Should you have a q7 and a q8 for every type of damage? Also are q7s more/less/about the same price as q8s? Hareemuhhh.talk? 20:10, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :q7 can range from 45-100+K and you really dont want to use a q8 since you will almost guaranteed always have weakness on you,/Edit: Just make sure you have +10 vs fire and vs slashing. Ocirne23 20:13, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::piercing. Gringo 20:41, May 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Piercing is less important than slashing and fire usually since there aren't many dps rangers and dagger base damage is pretty insignificant. I'd make sure to get slashing, fire, and blunt first.--TahiriVeila 21:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::blunt for all the hammer builds (from buff) imo---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 22:28, May 19, 2010 (UTC) wont make it sense to run hea=11+1+2 pro=8+1 div=8+1 tac=9 for those who dont have access to r7/8 shields?Illoyon 16:52, May 20, 2010 (UTC) :No, we try to store optimal builds. Optimal for this build is to have r7 shields. Brandnew 17:31, May 20, 2010 (UTC) ::It should probably be mentioned in the notes that a r8-r9 shield could be used if you can't afford a r7 shield. [[User:Karate Jesus|'Karate']] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|'Jesus']] 17:33, 20 May 2010 :::It's like 50k tops for a blue q7 chield. You really ought to be able to afford 1-2, and if you can't just play AB/JQ until you've saved up 10 zkeys. zzzzz--TahiriVeila 19:47, May 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::ZZZZZ =/ =/ =/ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Gringo 19:57, May 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::smd?--TahiriVeila 20:11, May 20, 2010 (UTC) ::As if I went and bought 5 q8s.... Hareemuhhh.talk? 21:09, May 20, 2010 (UTC) New Meta Draw condi is no longer needed. Assassins are out, Mesmers are in (they don't need blind removed to do damage!), and blind in the air line got nerfed anyway. Sig Rejuv should be mainbar now. So much energy denial. It's a necessity for being able to cast something while sitting at 0 energy in Shield Set. Zuranthium 02:40, May 22, 2010 (UTC) :I'm thinking that Guardian should leave the optionals as well. You seriously NEED vig spirit now. Your energy is going to be completely pooped on; being able to heal in shield set when you're constantly at 0 energy is incredibly important now. Zuranthium 02:50, May 22, 2010 (UTC) ::yea so is getting diversion off of you, which tons of mesmers are running, and this doesn't have veil. Gringo 03:21, May 22, 2010 (UTC) :::I'd rather have veil than cop here, honestly. Not taking cure when you need all the redbar you can get is retarded as well--TahiriVeila 03:57, May 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::Longer casting spells are more of a liability than ever after this skill update. Spotless + CoP is the best option you get for quick casts. As for Diversion - matches are going quicker now. Divert your lesser skills and wait it out when you can. We'll see how it plays out. Purge Signet could possibly make a comeback and, at the moment, I'm thinking Boon Signet might even be better than WoH for RA. These Mesmers are crazy (but I have to admit the novelty is REALLY fun right now if you are playing one...I just got 25 wins incredibly fast). Being able to camp shield at 0 energy and still heal is the name of the game. Zuranthium 05:10, May 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::CoP still seems weaker than cure. The only real advantage of CoP, would be that it removes diversion without becoming disabled. In this mesmer meta however, cure is both far more reliable and energy efficient. Casting shouldn't be an issue, since you are forced to swap to save energy anyways. --[[User:Readem|'Readem']] 02:54, May 23, 2010 (UTC) None of this reasoning warrants a major rune when you can cast Spotless on your enchant staff. Changing that because it makes 0 sense. 15:21, May 23, 2010 (UTC) :You should run a Major rune in RA because it's all about maximizing your efficiency and the amount you can heal. The health loss from the Major rune isn't a big deal. Zuranthium 23:21, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Removing virgorous while under pressure just to get rid of a hex is not worth it, Cure hex can relieve pressure and remove that hex on another ally as well. and interruption is not a problem, just learn to cancelcast signets.... -ocirne 10:57, May 26, 2010 (UTC) :That's why you don't remove the hex unless it's necessary to do so. With Sig Rejuv on the bar and botters gone, interrupts are definitely less of an issue. CoP still let's you remove 2 hexes and conditions, though. Depends on what you think is most likely to kill you. Being able to remove a covered Backfire or Daze is useful. Zuranthium 23:27, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Spear of Enchanting. * Furious spear of enchanting(20%) with "Brawn over Brains" (-5nrg) inscription. Having a set to hide your energy is a must in this meta, and this can be used for virgorous as well. The disadvantage is that you cant use virgorous on your enchanting set if your energy is really really low, but that should not happen very often. O and did I mention you can get a shield aswell? -ocirne 11:03, May 26, 2010 (UTC) :lol.. noone answerz >.> and curehex mainbar, "not taking cure when you need the most redbarring possible is retarded" CoP is not reliable enough. 15:18, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Common knowledge is common knowledge.-- 15:27, June 2, 2010 (UTC) ::You have no self condition removal without cop and dazed isnt that uncommon in RA.--Steamy..x 16:49, June 2, 2010 (UTC) :::You dont need self condition removal with 105 armour when you can just virgorous+spear your way trough damage, and daze is out of meta in RA. 15:05, June 3, 2010 (UTC) This writeup.... has gone to hell. Things have been changed so much that half of it is worthless. Why isn't Draw even listed in the variants section? Who the hell decided to mainbar Sig Rejuv instead of Draw? Variants still don't have Guardian listed (and it IS a variant, not resurrecting the old "do we need it" argument, just saying that it is a variant). The build in its present state isn't what was vetted.... 04:03, June 10, 2010 (UTC) Agreed, draw is so useful it needs to at least be a variant. Keeping blind off your warriors and removing deep wound on targets getting beat on is pretty beast. :fix'd lrn2hide nrg Ocirne23 15:02, June 16, 2010 (UTC) guardian wtb guardian, should be definate skill :was a big discussion and revert wars about this ages ago. We decided that pure heal is superior to hybrid.--Oskar 16:56, June 21, 2010 (UTC) Daze is pretty common since crack down on bots, draw is kinda suicidal -- 12:26, July 14, 2010 (UTC) :Between Bonetti's Defense, Patient Spirit, Vigorous Spirit and not being stupid, you should be fine. Tru...hardly 12:32, July 14, 2010 (UTC) ::Also, CoP. --BlazingBurdy 00:29, August 8, 2010 (UTC) "meta" I haven't seen this version of the build run once since it was changed to Only heal. People still run with prots and Guardian.--[[User:Ikimono1|'Ikimono'"Dakka Dakka Dakka"]] 12:21, August 29, 2010 (UTC) :True, thats because this build is generally only run by higher ranked monks. Not meta but it is certainly the best monk build. I see more ZB monks then this. lolpvx Ocirne23 12:47, August 29, 2010 (UTC) ::ZB is also something I haven't seen in about 6 months.-- 00:59, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :::nooo, it haz ROF and everyone here think ROF works in RA!!! And ZB does totally not get screwed by a single interrupt. If it gets interrupted you have totally not lost 10 energy. If it is interrupted you still have ROF left to heal!! ROF workz in RA! Ocirne23 07:31, August 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::Problem with ZB is, is that it takes a much better monk than WoH to run it properly.RoF is to migate damage more so than heal.You use ZB for heal.RoF to stop damage.Requires a brain (ie:fieldwatching) and is a bit more difficult to play than the typical powerheal bars, but if you know how to prot its orgasmic (<3 7s guardian)Btw a rupt such as d-shot counters everything,not just ZBCaplan 17:28, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::Not patient. --Lemming 18:21, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::not rof--Oskar 18:24, August 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::::The difference is, rof is completely useless. --Lemming 18:34, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::::i dont really care either way :)--Oskar 19:37, August 30, 2010 (UTC) oboy I like debates =3 WoH(thisbuild) Pro's vs interrupts * has lots of 1/4sec cast skills * has 4 effective healing skills * can cancelcast signets Con's vs interrupts * has less blocks to block interrupts ZB Pro's vs interrupts * Has guardian to block interrupts Con's vs interrupts * healing skill is 3/4cast * Has only 1 effective healing skill * Loses more energy if interrupted * More predictable since it is only ever used when below 50%, WoH is more flexible * ROF is absolutely awesome in low packet damage RA /cough. And is there a way to decrease space between lines without making it look bad? Ocirne23 21:38, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :who uses zb anymore?--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 21:49, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :use you dipshit--Oskar 22:07, August 30, 2010 (UTC) ::You forgot to add the part about how zb has prot skills to prevent damage,you get massive divine favor,and you get massive cd heal when chanted which happens most time and it can remove stacks with deny hexes.Divine spirit for spamming on skills,which allows deny hex to remove hex with a cover.Zb is nice though for people who want to start learning how to prot.I do think woh is better for ra though, but in fa I ALWAYS run ZB because shielding hands on a turtle=pwnage.Btw I do agree this is meta.Caplan 01:24, August 31, 2010 (UTC) :::No i did not forget, this was purely to compare the builds weaknesses against interrupts, and lol when I dshot your only heal. Ocirne23 06:06, August 31, 2010 (UTC) ::::All healers are vulnerable to rupts.You get woh d-shotted and any sin or war worth shit will put you down.At least with ZB you get guardian to protect yourself till recharge.You use RoF against ele's spiking you down to get damage migation and the divine favor heal until it recharges.Plus,you can only cancel cast a sig if you brought it over vig spirit.Caplan 14:23, August 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::patient spirit --Lemming 18:56, August 31, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Pressure calls for greater heals. Enjoy healing through a warrior and a rupt ranger camping your ass with only PS.--[[User:Ikimono1|'Ikimono'"Dakka Dakka Dakka"]] 20:04, August 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::::cancel cast tbh--Oskar 20:14, August 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::::That's when you put on vig, pop a patient and camp dolyak/bonetti's until woh gets back. If the ranger + warrior are both on you then none of your teammates should be dieing either.--TahiriVeila 21:26, August 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Didn't know rof qualified as a "greater heal," sorry. --Lemming 03:17, September 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::I'd take PS+WoH over ZB+RoF any day of the week, especially in RA. Far more flexible, much less prone to being screwed over by small-damage packet pressure (like 90% of RA). The WoH also has better hex removals (Spotless removes 3 hexes over Deny's 1-2), and better condition removal (draw always gets blind off the melee, unlike Dismiss). The only advantage ZB might have is Guardian over Vig, though Vig is still crazy helpful as anti-pressure. Plus, WoH has Dolyak to further diminish any physical threats. I don't see too much of a comparison to be completely frank. -- Jai 03:53, September 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Also, the 100-110 AL on the WoH is more "protection" then the entire ZB bar. You have a double stance warrior that heals for 250 every time for 5 energy whilst constantly healing himself with virgorous and getting adrenaline at the same time. (tootiredtologin) 07:41, September 1, 2010 (UTC) Counters This bar has lots of counters that havent been added such as: Warriors, Rangers, Me,msmers, Necros, Paragons, Water Spells, Diversion, Shame, Energy Denial, Melee Damage, Ranged Damage, Wand Damage, DoT, snares and Lava. What I'm trying to say is, whoever thought pure heal was smart is a moron. oh and Wounding strike. --Silven Shadow 11:18, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :You just tank warrior damage (Disciples + shields + bonetti's?), Rangers will counter everything, but as long as you position wisely they shouldn't be too much of a problem. Mesmers and Necros aren't much of a problem with Spotless and cure hex. Idk why you listed paragons, but whatever. Diversion and Shame can be waited out, your team should be able to survive for 6 secs without you, if not just have one of your skills diverted, depending on the match. You can just tank and outheal melee and ranged damage, snares are unimportant when you don't move a whole lot anyway and i don't know why you listed lava. Pure heal is a preference, and at the moment it's accepted as one of the better, if not the best, ra WoH bars. What I'm trying to say is, ym. Brandnew 11:44, September 21, 2010 (UTC) ::So we're assuming everything in RA is as bad as you so you can stand still and win. Why not just run hybrid so that you use more then 1/4 of your brain and can not get raped by half-decent players!!?! nah you're right sticking with bad-player-beating builds is good right? --Silven Shadow 11:53, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :::Try winning in RA when you don't have monk and they do....so bad--[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 12:24, September 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::Why run a worse build when you can run a better one? I really dont get it --Silven Shadow 12:29, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :::::It's fucking RA. Universality is key....hence healing--[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 12:34, September 21, 2010 (UTC) lol ::::::But this build doesnt work universally so yeah nice way to support my arguement! cheers. --Silven Shadow 01:05, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::There were more detailed arguments on the pros/cons of guardian that you can look at, done by better players than X and myself, in the archives. Take a look before continuing this, thanks! Toraen 01:12, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Oh, and the link to the archived discussions is Archive talk:Mo/any WoH Arena Monk. Thought it was an archive of this talk for some reason. Toraen 01:52, September 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Alrdy looked at em, unfortunately lots of the time its more morons making a proper arguement for once so no1 cares or theyre argueing for the wrong reason. --Silven Shadow 02:31, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Ok, then explain why hybrid is better and give concrete examples. If it's better then you should be able to make a strong case for it. Don't just insult other users and expect them to listen. You have yet to explain in this section exactly what makes hybrid better, you've just stated that pure heal is bad and will get rolled. I don't care about either side of the argument since I'm a pretty terrible monk and don't see the point of trying to get better at it (or any GW) when my ping is ~1000, I just want everyone to try and be civil so I don't have to ban everyone on this talk. Toraen 03:03, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::For example, you could have just said "Whirling Axe shits all over this since it's only self-defense against interrupts is stances" and avoided a bunch of dumb responses and wasted time. There'd be other dumb responses in their place of course, but I think it would've worked out to more progress! Toraen 03:13, September 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::It allows raw damage on the entire team because there are no prots and only relying on once source of defence, which is bon. Balanced > dol because you can kite. 10 armour is far less then their frontline hitting 2 or 3 less hits on you. Then you have access to higher prot for skills such as shielding hands and soa, which dramatically reduces the amout you need to heal. So basically without prots you're just loosing more health and spending more energy (and also prone to more counters). Waste --Silven Shadow 03:25, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::If you use balanced stance, how are you going to maintain bonetti's defense D:--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 03:28, September 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::i dont bring bons, i have balanced and disc. --Silven Shadow 03:30, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::either way, arguing with toraen won't get you anywhere, and no one else cbf to argue with you cause ur bad. Have a nice day!--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 03:42, September 22, 2010 (UTC) tbh, we only changed the build to pure heal because zurrie got butthurt and starting reverting everything and changing shit out of consensus after discussion had ended and people stopped caring. Should probably document meta, not what the best(if it actually is) option is. Life Guardian 05:49, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :So basically its like the old Starburster build. Not good but popular, and therefore, meta. so bad --Silven Shadow 09:04, September 22, 2010 (UTC) ::He's actually saying it the other way around ^^ MiseryUser talk:Misery 10:12, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :::Well then he's saying it's not popular, and it's definately not good...sooo yeah...--Silven Shadow 02:37, September 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::Silven, I really don't care if this build is bad or not, I get more wins with it than I do running any other prof. That's all that really matters to me. I'm too lazy and too busy to try something else that may or may not be marginally better. But if you want to convince anyone, you're going to have to stop being retarded and give some real examples as to why including prot in the current meta does a better job than pure heal. You can say this isn't mitigating damage all day long, but the idea is that prots really won't mitigate as much as heals heal. If Guardian stops 100 damage, that's less that what Patient would outright heal (120). Unless prots can consistently mitigate more damage that what Patient, WoH, and Vigorous heal for at 15 Heal, they're not worth taking. Prots are also more difficult to use, and considering the average skill of an RA monk, I'd rather they ran the simplest build possible. --[[User Talk:Jaigoda|'Jai']][[User:Jaigoda|'.']] - 13:31, September 23 2010 (UTC) :::::If you're that fucking stupid, that you haven't learnt to prot yet, go Ahead and use a less effective build. But it's like bringing a pet ranger because you can hit 100s with ur pet over interupts because you can't see what interupts do to the other team. --Silven Shadow 01:32, September 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I seem to be mistaken, or for lack of a better word, confused.... are you saying RA requires skill? forgot how serious this arena was... /shrug Akio_Katsuragi 05:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::That's a pretty terrible analogy that doesn't even really work in this situation. If you could consistently deal, say, 150DPS with a ranger and a pet then yeah, that would probably be more desirable over a standard ranger, just like how the Escape Daggers was abused so much while it was around. I understand prot obviously, but I also realize that if a prot consistently mitigates less damage than an equivalent heal will heal, then the prot is not worth it. There is risk behind prots, especially in an area that is built around the precipice of being random. Heals are universal, and will always heal for what they say (outside of DW). And there comes certain times when utility and mitigation are outclassed by pure damage and healing, and you can see that in past times (again, see Escape Daggers). Whether heals are at that point right now is very much up for debate, but it's still something that you would do good to consider. --[[User Talk:Jaigoda|'Jai']][[User:Jaigoda|'.']] - 14:58, September 25 2010 (UTC) And they used to called me NooB It's so funny how things change with time. People used to laugh of me and called me noob for having Bonetti's defense on my bar along with anti-knockdown skills, now is mostly the standard monk skills in GW. Who was the NooB then? Or did everyone turned into ONE? ;)--Barbie of Kryta 16:51, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :NEWS FLASH everyone on PVX is a NOOB!!!--[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 18:39, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :Could have been a meta change ^^ MiseryUser talk:Misery 19:14, September 22, 2010 (UTC) ::"Noob" is old. That's the new meta. This isn't the fucking 00's anymore. Get with the times people. It's the 10's. Christ. How ya been misery? xtreme? nice nice... but yea, meta shifted to blocking being a really nice thing. sigh. Akio_Katsuragi 03:22, September 24, 2010 (UTC) :::We'll still call you a newb, even if you really aren't one. PvX is crawling with trolls, and I'm the high and mighty Troll King! Now BOW B4 MEH, NooB! --BlazingBurdy 03:45, October 25, 2010 (UTC) LolWut!?! What happened to the text, it's spanish o.O 15:49, October 29, 2010 (UTC) :Diversity month. Euros and mexicans play GW too.--TahiriVeila 15:54, October 29, 2010 (UTC) ::Figures, however I would say more people speak English than spanish, or at least give a english version as well... 10:36, November 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Just use Google Chrome instead of shitty Firefox or IE8. Then you can translate it right on the page. I think you're being racist against mexicans and jews. --[[User Talk:Jaigoda|'Jai']][[User:Jaigoda|'.']] - 13:05, November 1 2010 (UTC) ::::Last I checked the internet does not ban people from making alternative wikis translated to other languages. This is fucking stupid. Everyone brags about PvX being "optimal headquarters" but here we are with pages that most people visiting this page probably can't even read. 05:01, November 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::lol optimal headquarters — Skakid 16:35, November 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::OHQ, also translating a translation works as well as you'd think it would--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 18:30, November 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Also translating works as well as you'd think it would. Also fucking lol IP. --[[User Talk:Jaigoda|'Jai']][[User:Jaigoda|'.']] - 19:33, November 18 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Why are no pages written in American? I'm offended. I will get my shotgun off the rack in my truck and wait for and answer on my porch. Akio_Katsuragi 20:02, November 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Month is over. You can set it back now. Also I will stop using firefox when GC comes packaged with all of my addons. "Diversity month" is obviously going to piss off anyone that hasn't taken 4 years of a foreign language in high school. --TakenUsername 03:27, December 27, 2010 (UTC) :::Not everyone gets Spanish in school, y'know - im Dutch, and we get German, French, English and ancient Greek/Latin - and seeing the school patterns around the world, english ALWAYS is in it, then comes spanish on 2nd place - can't say im happy with diversity month, but hey, making your own build is more fun anyways ;) Deadfalk 07:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC) Dversity Decade This website should just close down. epic fail